Why Democrats recoil from Gaza

Posted by Kam, Wednesday, January 7, 2009, 11:05 pm "Democrats hold an inexhaustible faith in the value of negotiation".............This is such a funny comment. Dems have been taught by Carville, Begalla, and yes, Obama to get into peoples' faces and screed until the other person agrees. What the dems haven't learned is that the other person is leaving in disgust not because they have been convinced of anything. Dems believe that the same type of negotiations with enemies is a guarantee of success. When someone is willing and wanting to suffer and die for their beliefs, there is no means of negotiation because there is nothing for which to negotiate.

Posted by MarkJ, Thursday, January 8, 2009, 10:15 am Republicans generally believe that "process" is a means to an end. Democrats generally believe that "process" is an end in itself. Most Democrats will continue to believe in the latter...right up to the day a car bomb explodes on their quiet, tree-lined streets.

Posted by Jethro, Thursday, January 8, 2009, 11:11 am Your copy is too wide for my screen and no way to scroll left to right. So, I can't read your stuff. Pity ?

Posted by Katie, Thursday, January 8, 2009, 12:13 pm "Third, the more closely Americans follow the news, the more likely they are to support Israel. Yet more low-information voters are Democrats than Republicans." I follow the news more closely than most people I know, and I am a Democrat. I also have taken the time to research the history of the present-day Israel-Palestine conflict, which you rarely get in the news beyond the last attack. What I have noticed is that when I watch or read mainstream news, I often find myself correcting them on blatant misinformation, inaccuracies, or omissions. So maybe people who watch the news support Israel because the news itself supports Israel? Wasn't that the conservative argument for why Obama was so popular -- he was popular in the news, and so he was popular with the people? Among the well-educated democrats, all the "pointy-headed professor types" conservatives seem to loathe so much, there is a fairly strong consensus that while Hamas is not right in what they do, neither is Israel. I think you are correct in saying that, generally speaking, Democrats are less likely to support violent conflict. I personally am not willing to support a conflict when it has been going on for 100 years, and the violence has yet to achieve the ends either side seeks. If someone told you that if you bashed your head against a 100 ft. cement wall long enough, you could eventually bring down the wall, would you keep bashing your head against it, day after day, year after year? My logic is not that I am against war. It's just that in this particular case, it has proven to be ineffective and has not achieved its goals. Perhaps that's crazy logic to see a century of failed war as, well, a failure, but. I don't believe Israel to be genocidal or evil or anything like that. I believe them to be misguided and to be pursuing a policy that will not improve the situation for their people. If you see my, and many other Democrats', beliefs that ongoing military action as not being to Israel's benefit either, then you will see we are are, in fact, also friends to Israel. We just believe that there's a better way of being their friends than cheering them on in a never ending battle. But, keep telling them to bash their heads against that wall. Perhaps 100 more years of bashing will bring it down.

Posted by Jay, Thursday, January 8, 2009, 12:38 pm Katie said, finally, "If you see my, and many other Democrats', beliefs that ongoing military action as not being to Israel's benefit either, then you will see we are are, in fact, also friends to Israel. We just believe that there's a better way of being their friends than cheering them on in a never ending battle." Apparently that would be the surrender option that Democrats pushed so strongly for in Iraq. Of maybe cheering their negotiations while condemning the right to self defense. Israel has been fighting for survival for 60 years, not 100, and negotiating for 50 years. The fighting has kept Israel in existance while the negotiations have accomplished...lets see...the Oslo Accords...land for peace... withdrawal from Gaza...and on an on with never any peace. Perhaps Katie will explain exactly how you negotiate with people who are only interested in your extermination. Too bad Katie wasn't around to provide guidance for the Jews in their negotiation with the Third Reich's on the "final solution". Surely things would have worked out swell.

Posted by orthodoc, Thursday, January 8, 2009, 2:21 pm "I personally am not willing to support a conflict when it has been going on for 100 years, and the violence has yet to achieve the ends either side seeks." The end that Hamas seeks is the destruction of Israel and the obliteration of the Jews. It's in their charter, and very explicitly so. The end that Israel seeks is to be left alone. As the IRA told Margaret Thatcher following an unsuccessful assassination attempt, "You have to be lucky every time. We only have to be lucky once." I assume the analogy is clear.

Posted by jr565, Thursday, January 8, 2009, 2:43 pm Katie represents the liberal world view to a tee in her denunciation of Israel and also her decrying violence. And its so damn myopic and one side its annoying. Its hard to believe grwon people have such a disconnect from reality yet it is quite common. In her worldview Israel and the US are the cause of all problems, and thus also the cause of all solutions. Any and all grievances of their enemies are caused due to actions of the superpowers(and all legitimate apparently) and therefore all that needs to be done to end any violence is for Israel or the US to stop engaging in violence. This is best exemplified in the following paragraph: I believe them to be misguided and to be pursuing a policy that will not improve the situation for their people. If you see my, and many other Democrats', beliefs that ongoing military action as not being to Israel's benefit either, then you will see we are are, in fact, also friends to Israel. We just believe that there's a better way of being their friends than cheering them on in a never ending battle. But, keep telling them to bash their heads against that wall. Because apparently to Katie only Israel and the US can even have a policy to pursue.Palestinians, in her view apparently only react to Israels policies. But if Israel stopped banging their head against the wall violence would instantly end because the Palestians do not have goals and motivations of their own. They are simply reactors. I'd argue that it takes two to tango, and if in fact Israel is at war with Hamas or Iran or any combo it doesn't mean that they are necessarily the cause or that were they to stop fighting that somehow it would mean that Iran would stop arming Hamas or that Hamas would stop firing rockets. It may even be in Israel's interest to stop banging their heads against the wall (to use Katie's comparison), that doesnt mean though that somehow Iran or Hamas wants to cease banging its head against the wall or more accurately that they dont want to caese banging Israel's head against the wall. Remember katie, Israel and Hamas had a ceasefire. Israel gave Gaza to the Palestinians with no preconditions. Yet Hamas is still firing rockets. If someone wants to fight and another person doesn't it doesn't stop the person wanting to fight if the other person withdraws, unless they too want to stop fighting. Also, the argument that Katie is somehow a friend to Israel but just doens't feel like supporting them in their banging their head against the wall is again, one sided. What about Iran supporting Hamas? Does her withdrawing her support from Israel mean somehow that Iran withdraws its support from Hamas? Absolutely not. Think of it as a tug of war. Both sides are pulling on the rope. If all of Israels supporters stop pulling on the rope but none of the Hamas supporters do it doesn't mean an end to the tug of war. It simply means that one side wins. The antiwar stance doesn't in fact stop wars it ensures that the wrong side wins and in fact prolongs wars or makes wars more inevitable.

Posted by Lucy, Thursday, January 8, 2009, 3:07 pm "Third, the more closely Americans follow the news, the more likely they are to support Israel. ...." Not if they've been reading and watching news coverage - American and Internaional - this week.

Posted by velvel in decatur, Thursday, January 8, 2009, 3:46 pm How about naming names and giving addresses for these nitwits so that they get mailboxes full of maps and school books and other items to raise their intel levels from D minus?

Posted by M. Broschowitz, Thursday, January 8, 2009, 4:01 pm This article identifies the serious problems of liberalism gone mad, which if allowed to obtain, can destroy not only Israel, but Western civilization. It is not impossible that a victorious fundimental radical Islam, can return the world to a new "dark age."

Posted by Andrew R. Freedman, Thursday, January 8, 2009, 4:29 pm Most of the criticism of Israel is in the form of accusations employing emotion arousing labels about murder and genocide, very little in the way of specific facts or events. Perhaps one should always start with a simple question when confronted with this. Why is Israel in Gaza? If there were no rocket attacks, would anyone realistically believe Israelis would have any interest in engaging in a war that is costly in lives and resources? Do Jews generally or historically aspire to shooting people? One should take anti Jewish sentiment to its fullest. Foster up all the negative stereotypes that make Jews despised and repulsive to the world. Now with that in mind, is there any antisemite who would envision a Jew as a war mongering imperialist? Jews if left to their natural desires would more likely want to talk you to death, or perhaps force you to sit at the table and eat until you explode. Or try to sell you something, like a camera, or an investment. Is there anything in the character of Jews, despised and loathsome as they are to so many, that would cause one to REALLY think they achieve some joy in killing people. The news media and the governments around the world need to take a major reality check.

Posted by bob dole, Thursday, January 8, 2009, 4:48 pm "more low-information voters are Democrats than Republicans." I would love to see statistics back this claim up, if there are any.

Posted by bob dole, Thursday, January 8, 2009, 4:50 pm M. Broschowitz, I am confused: is liberalism gone mad or radical fundamentalism going to be the end of civilization? They are two completely different things . . . .

Posted by cubanbob, Thursday, January 8, 2009, 7:07 pm Katie | Thursday, January 8, 2009, 6:13 pm Typical democrat;idiot. Katie if someone with a gun threatens to kill me and my family, I will kill him and his family if that is what it takes to save my life and that of my family. Negotiations are for friends, allies, business partners and non warring adversaries. Terms are dictated to enemy combatants. There was a time democrats understood this. Enemy life has no value, otherwise they would not be the enemy. Ask Harry S Truman. Kill the enemy in such numbers that the prospect of surrender is preferable than continuing warring. That is exactly what Generals US Grant and WT Sherman did in the US Civil War to get the South to surrender. That is what the Allies did to Germany and Japan in WW2. Your pompous comments are nauseating. Allies don't demand that Allies 'negotiate' with enemies whose war aims are that you must die. That is at best insulting and condescending. Your comment that you think is the height of arrogance, your comment demonstrated that you know nothing of what you claim to know and further more are incapable of holding a logical and coherent thought. In short your a typical democrat, politically a moron.

Posted by Steve, Thursday, January 8, 2009, 7:44 pm I agree - the 60 going on 100 year war between Israel and its Arab neighbors sucks. But I missed Katie's point - in lieu of defensive military action to protect the lives and quality of life of its citizens in the face of neighbors who believe they can terrorize Israelis into giving up and leaving their country, what is the alternative that Katie suggests - and please, please Katie, provide impiracle evidence that your approach offers a reasonable chance of success.

Posted by Testy, Thursday, January 8, 2009, 8:20 pm Oh, B.S. I for one follow news & events closely and am thoroughly disgusted by Israel's policies and actions.

Posted by Vania , Thursday, January 8, 2009, 9:07 pm The bottom line: No democrat knows the situation in Israel unless he has lived in Israel or the West Bank. If he lived in the West Bank and supportsthe Palestinians, he was educated to believe the Protocols of the Elders of Zion is real. No one else has any right to comment on the issue. So liberal Hollywood can suck eggs.

Posted by Brett , Thursday, January 8, 2009, 9:09 pm Mr. Frum's statistics sound dubious at best! What might the 43% of democrats and the 5% of rep0blicans have said as an alternative to using US troops to destroy a terrorist training camp? Maybe we should let the troops of the country in which the terrorist camp was found do the job perhaps? There is a lot going on right now in this country as well as in the rest of the world, as we all allegedly realize. The last thing we need is divisive, contrasting, reactionary politics that simply seek to beat the opposition down without providing workable solutions in a sad attempt to make themselves look better. Do you really think that the use of any amount of force, short of complete genocide, is going to end the Israeli/Palestinian conflict? What basis do you have for that unrealistic belief?!? Do you think that genocide of either side is acceptable? Wouldn't that be ironic if the Israelis became the nation who successfully exacted a "final solution" on another group of people! I really don't think that the majority of Israelis really want to commit genocide, so how is fighting going to work as a solution? I can tell you how it might work to delay any possible long-term solution! All violence does is bring the desire for revenge even deeper into another generation. Would any amount of violence by, say, al Qaida make you want to give in to them and abandon your way of life? Absolutely not!! No one is saying that the Palestinians do not bear any blame or have any liability in the conflict with Israel. No one is saying that Israel does not have the right to defend itself. At the same time, what so many people seem so willing to forget is that Israel is not without liability, either, and no amount of whitewashing is going to make that reality go away. There are Israelis that want to wipe the Palestinians out of existence just like Hamas wants to do to Israel. There are settlers who go and violate agreements and try to steal lawful Palestinian land. No one is saying that either Israel or the United States are solely to blame for anything, but taking an unrealistically simplistic view that Israel can do no wrong won't solve the problem, either, even if it makes you feel better about the situation. Any possible solution to this situation, if there ever could be one, will not be easy, but that does not mean that we should not try to find it. Both sides should be held accountable for atrocities. Both sides have a responsibility to their children.

Posted by Micha Elyi, Thursday, January 8, 2009, 9:39 pm Katie, Katie Couric, is that you Katie?
. . .
By the way, why haven't the self-appointed thought police among the Obama Youth tagged those snarky comments from the Israeli-haters for deletion from the change.gov site, eh? Oh, why do I even bother asking, we all know the answer: Obama's suck ups see their rock star idol as Brother Hussein.

Posted by Herb, Friday, January 9, 2009, 3:29 pm With all of Katie's self announced intelligence and reading background, she proposes only the failed option of negotiating with a committed enemy. Chamberlain had the same philosophy as has been tne approach in recent negotiations about Palestine and Israel. Apparently Katie has never lived within miles of a force dedicate to eliminating her that was apparently approved and supported by the government there. It would be like living in Detroit with missiles being lobbed in from Ontario and the Ontaria governmet doing nothing to stop the missile firing group. What would be her reaction at that time? Katie needs to recognse the reality that the terrorists and their supporters do not want negotiations, only an elimination of Israel.

Posted by Dave, Saturday, January 10, 2009, 7:46 am It looks like there are a lot of people in this country who actually do want to just keep bashing their heads uselessly against a wall! What is the definition of insanity? Keep doing the same thing over and over while expecting to get a different result? If Hamas had warplanes and bombed Israel, do you really think that the Israeli people would turn against their government? If another major terrorist attack hits the United States, is it going to make YOU turn against our government?!? If not, then why do you think that Israel's aggression would make the Palestinians do anything else besides rally under their government? Does that sound like it is going to solve anything to you? Please read what Katie said carefully, and you will understand that she does not say that Israel should just sit there and take it. She also acknowledges that the Palestinians share a lot of blame in the current situation. These issues that we face around the world are not so simplistic that a sophomoric "let's get tough" attitude is going to work, but it will definitely make things worse.

Posted by Michelle, Saturday, January 10, 2009, 7:24 pm As a lifelong Democrat AND lifelong supporter of Israel, I continue to be amazed at the shift among certain factions of American liberals (including many Jews). A few decades ago it was fashionable for liberals to support Israel, but now I frequently find myself defending Israel to my fellow Democrats (though perhaps less so over the last couple of years). Not that I believe that Israel's policies are always right, nor do I blindly support every Knesset or even every prime minister - Israelis, after all, have no qualms about voicing their disapproval of policies and politicians. (It helps to live in the only Middle Eastern democracy: Israeli dissenters don't wind up dead.) For example, I deplore the settlements that have been allowed to flourish in the territories, and was actually in Israel just before the Gaza disengagement in 2005 - the cause of much internal strife. But at the end of the day, I believe wholeheartedly that no other country has the right to dictate to Israel what is and is not an appropriate means of defending its citizens. And anyone who has not lived there just can't understand this need. When lower Manhattan starts lobbing rockets into Newark, let's talk. Meanwhile, my fellow Dems, let's hope that the Palestinians kick Hamas out of Gaza so they can get on with their lives...and we can get back to worrying about Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and the other messes around the world.

Posted by MARK, Sunday, January 11, 2009, 4:58 pm and for some reason most Jews vote democrat, How short sighted can they be?

Posted by Aaron Levitt, Thursday, January 15, 2009, 1:15 pm Mr. Frum might want to learn a bit about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict before attempting to write about it. If there's one certainty at the moment, it is that there will be no peace until Israel makes some move to work seriously with the current, extraordinarily cooperative PA government in the West Bank. So long as the response to Palestinian restraint in the West Bank is settler pogroms, robbery, and settlement expansion, Israel has zero chance of ending, or even weakening, Hama control of Gaza. The recent decision to ban all Arab-Israeli parties from the upcoming elections might be just a wee bit idiotic, as well. If I were a conservative, I might be dismayed at the movement's apparent abandonment of such principles as democracy, equality, private property rights, and the rule of law. Fortunately, though, I'm just a regular old American.

Posted by Ben, Friday, January 16, 2009, 9:40 am You are a hack and a loser, Frum.